Dianne WhitfordOh my gosh. I recorded this podcast almost three months ago. It took me a while to publish it (obviously). Take this as a return from hiatus and a renewed commitment to bringing you regular episodes again!
In this episode, Carter and I join forces to talk about something that was a little uncomfortable…but in Carter’s words, has the “fierce urgency of now.” It is something that should be talked about, has to be talked about, has to be normalized.
Today we’re talking about All Lives Matter versus Black Lives Matter. Regardless of where you fall on this particular spectrum, the conversation is good and may give you something to think about. Plus I have so many verbal vomits and “120 degree crashes into brick walls” that it has to be worth it.
Please let me know your thoughts. In comments, direct messages, on Facebook, wherever. I think this is an important dialog, and we should be having it, even if it is uncomfortable.
Referenced in this episode:
- S2E5: Helping Others Shine: https://coffeegritandinspiration.com/helping-others-shine-s2e5/
Coffee Break Podcast: making personal development accessible and helping people grow. One episode at a time.
Have a wonderful week!
Music via Epidemic Sound:
- Enjoy Your Heartbreak (Sting Version) by Martin Hall
- Limited Edition (Sting Version) by Anders Ekengren
Transcript
Dianne:
Hey everybody! it’s Dianne Whitford with Coffee, Grit, and Inspiration, and this is your weekly Coffee Break podcast. Although lately it has not been weekly. And part of that is because of all the upheaval that is happening in my life right now, and that we wanted to talk about today. But I’ve got Carter with me. Hey Carter.
Carter:
Hey Dianne.
Dianne:
And we wanted to talk a little bit about how the world has kind of exploded in the last couple weeks, last few weeks, I guess actually maybe months too, if you want to include the pandemic. In my personal world, I bought a house and moved and it has been super, super exciting, terrifying, frustrating, painful, cause we did all the move ourselves. It’s been, it’s been a tough time and as I was doing that and being sucked up into that, I was also trying to keep tabs on, you know, what’s happening across the nation, trying to do a little bit of Facebooking time, watching the news, and other things.
Dianne:
And of course over the last few weeks, started to really see some, some themes and things recurring across multiple platforms around the Black Lives Matter movement and protests. And I am located in Seattle. And as you guys may or may not know there is a zone within Seattle that has been designated in autonomous zone. I know this is happening across a few different cities in the nation right now. The protests here have been pretty…enthusiastic is probably the right term. And, and amongst all of this stuff, something that Carter and I both have seen happen a lot is some people feeling as if the Black Lives Matter [movement] means they don’t matter. And so they bring up, “we all matter, all lives matter, everyone matters”.
And, and so we wanted to talk a little bit about that today because I don’t think anyone disagrees that all lives matter. All lives are important. I matter, you matter, we all matter, but, but how does all lives matter and black lives matter…why is that in conflict? And so we kind of wanted to talk about that today.
Carter:
I think the only other thing that I would point out, Dianne, is that you and I are both white people. So we, we approach this from a certain perspective in a, in a certain kind of privilege. So for my own part, I’m, I’m a white dude from the South. I am aware that my perspective is shaped by those facts. I don’t pretend to come with built-in information outside of that perspective which makes it all the more important that I go look for those perspectives.
Dianne:
Such a good point. That is such, such, such a good point. I, you know, in the past before a lot of this stuff started happening, I’ve always felt a little bit like I shouldn’t talk about these things cause what do I know? I don’t know. You know, I have no right to talk about race, you know. And what I think has been really good, at least for me from my perspective over the last few weeks, is that race discussion has been opened up to people that maybe previously didn’t feel like they could or should comment or have an opinion about race or racial injustice or anything like that. And so I’m a little bit nervous about today’s podcast, but at the same time, I feel liberated to be able to really talk about my opinion on this particular topic and because this is my podcast, I feel comfortable sharing my opinion. So I appreciate that you are here to share that with me.
Carter:
Well, thank you for the opportunity.
Dianne:
No, thank you. So I’ll do it. We can just open this up with kind of the underlying concept that we, we have been talking about back and forth over the last couple of weeks, Carter and I have, around this idea that if someone says black lives matter, that someone responds with all lives matter. And really what I think that’s coming from…and I know this because this is how I felt before a lot of this started to happen…is if black lives matter, then I don’t matter. Or, or why, why do only black lives matter? Why, why don’t white people matter? Why don’t Asian people matter? Why don’t any other type of race or color of skin matter?
And I think that the biggest light bulb for me over the last few weeks has been when someone says black lives matter, it does not mean that no one else does. It doesn’t mean that I don’t matter. It doesn’t mean that Carter doesn’t matter. It doesn’t mean that my family doesn’t matter. It doesn’t mean that only black lives matter. And I think that’s where, when someone says black lives matter and someone else responds with “all lives matter”, I think at least for some people, maybe for a lot of people, that that’s where that is coming from, because they feel like when someone says black lives matter, that they’re saying those are the only lives that matter. Really don’t think that’s the case.
Carter:
Yeah, I think that there’s a, a mindset, Dianne, that sort of sees it as there’s only so much pie. Right. And if black lives matter, that means that there’s a less pie for everybody else. And that kind of artificial, that kind of scarcity, that kind of, there’s not enough “matter” to go around like look, black lives matter, do all lives matter.
Dianne:
Of course they do.
Carter:
Of course they do. But right this minute we’re talking about black lives. That’s the focus right this minute.
Dianne:
Yes, that is what opened my eyes. Like, honestly, that is what opened my eyes. All you have to do is look on Facebook for five seconds. And you see meme after meme, after meme, after meme, whether it’s politics or COVID or BLM or anything else, it’s just constant barrage of all these memes. And for me, a meme is tough because I don’t really like to share them, especially when they’re talking about facts or accusations or anything like that, because I have no idea how based in fact that is right. Like, I don’t know what their source is, if they took something out of context and I don’t want to represent that on my Facebook, right? So I reserve my Facebook mostly for how many boxes I unpacked today and how frustrating that was for me.
Dianne:
Right? I mean, that’s kind of what I’m doing on my Facebook. But what I have seen that did actually change my mind a lot is when I saw this meme and it talked about something from the Bible. And, and I haven’t done a fact check to know if they referenced the right Bible thing, or even if this is from the Bible in the first place. But the point being, is that a shepherd has a hundred sheep and one of those sheep wanders off and the shepherd leaves those 99 sheep to go find that one sheep that is lost and the other 99 sheep say, “what about me? Am I aren’t I important too?” And the response is, “of course you are, but you’re not in danger. And this one sheep is in danger. And so I’m going to go focus on him right now”. And that is for me, that’s what switched a light in my mind is that you don’t, you don’t…by saying that black lives matter, You’re not saying that all these other lives don’t matter. You’re not saying that I don’t care about all of this other stuff. You’re giving attention where it’s needed right now. And you’re supporting the people that need it right now.
Carter:
Yeah. That’s such a, that’s such a great such a great metaphor. The shepherd needs to go where the lost sheep is.
Dianne:
It’s true though, in that metaphor, that is exactly what it’s saying is, and whether it’s a sheep…I saw another one with Bob is sitting at the table with a bunch of people and everybody gets food except for Bob. And Bob says, “I’m hungry. Bob, Bob needs food.” And everyone says, “everyone needs food.” And they keep eating. And it is true. Everyone needs food, but that does not change the fact that Bob does not have any and he needs some food.
Dianne:
That’s, it’s a similar metaphor is that you need to focus your time and energy and support where it’s needed, whether that’s brush fires in Australia or shoot ups in Boston or black lives matter, or Seattle protests or whatever is happening across the like India, they invasion of India or anything like that. Like that’s where you focus your time and your prayers and your thoughts and your attention because that’s, what’s in danger and that’s what needs help and support.
Carter:
It’s so interesting that you bring up Boston, because one of the favorite things that I’ve seen recently was sort of a comparison of black lives matter, all lives matter with the with the terrorist attack on the Boston Marathon. You know, after the, after the attack of the Boston Marathon, there was a lot of, a lot of…is, the term Bostonites?
Dianne:
Bostonites, we’ll call them Bostonites.
Carter:
Let’s go with it. There were a lot of Bostonites who were claiming “Boston proud and rightfully so. Right. And nobody came in and was like, yeah, but what about Sacramento? I mean, right this minute we’re focusing on Boston.
Dianne:
It’s such a good point.
Carter:
You know, that kind of, that kind of distraction, that kind of almost deliberately, “Hey, what about me?” Like, it’s kind of a selfish response.
Dianne:
Yes, yes. It’s like a white washing. Right? And I don’t know if it’s safe to use that term, but it’s so accurate to what’s happening is you’re trying to make it pale. And again, this is, we’re not psychologists. We’re not social experts. Like this is just our own observations and opinions. But what I feel like is happening is that people are kind of trying to whitewash it and make it the same. Like make it, you know, all lives matter.
Dianne:
It’s not just black lives, all lives matter. In an effort to make, make this safe, to whitewash it because it is uncomfortable. And, and people who have never thought of themselves as racist or people who have never thought of themselves as seeing color, or, you know, have always been raised…Like, I don’t know how often you heard this, but I heard it a lot when I was a kid, is, I, you don’t see color. We don’t see color here. But that’s not what is wanted. That is not, they don’t want you to not see their color. They want you to honor the differences. Honor the things that make us different. And I think that by trying to say, all lives matter, you’re not special. You’re not different. This is, “I want to make this safe because this topic is very uncomfortable for me. And it feels very dangerous and I want to make it safe. I want to make it all the same.” And that’s what’s happening when people are doing all lives matter.
Carter:
I think that’s, I think that’s right on. It’s…This is a frightening topic. This is a scary space for an awful lot of people. And Dianne, I’m with you. I was again, was raised in the South. So I have some baggage around this, but I think it’s absolutely a reaction to just that baggage to try and put up some walls, to put up some, some padding and say, “no, no, no, let’s, let’s make this safe for me. Let’s make this comfortable for me. And I think for a lot of…
Dianne:
Let’s homogenize it.
Carter:
Seriously. And I think for a lot of people that’s saying, look all lives matter where we’re all the same. I think that makes it safe for them to disregard the things that aren’t the same, the things that are different, the things that are the things that are worth celebrating in our differences.
Dianne:
Yes, yes, yes. It is uncomfortable. Like I have this little nervous fluttery feeling in my stomach right now, as we’re talking about this, because I, it has been ingrained in me since I was a kid that you don’t talk about it. You don’t talk about race. You don’t talk about, you know, because people will think you’re a racist. You don’t, you know, if you talk about the differences in people, people will think you’re a racist. It’s, it’s I know it’s nothing compared to oppression that’s happened in other, with other people, you know, I’ve never had to experience that. I know I haven’t ever, you know, like the privilege that you were talking about earlier. It’s real, and I’ve never thought of myself as privileged, but when I start to think about it, I am. And I understand the need to try to make something like this more comfortable. I understand it, but I, but I’m trying to grow out of that, you know, and, and really address it more head-on. Because I don’t feel like in this case you can stay safe and you can stay on the sidelines and try to homogenize it. Because it can’t be homogenized and it shouldn’t be, and it shouldn’t be.
Carter:
Yeah, absolutely. The discomfort, I feel as a, as a well-off white person talking about…
Dianne:
White male too, because that’s even worse.
Carter:
I, I I’m I am the epitome of playing life on easy mode. I am a, I am a straight white male in the South. This is it. This is as easy as it gets. Right? So that the discomfort that I feel talking about race though, like that is nothing in comparison to the lived experience of people who have been on the receiving end of racism. The least I can do is talk about this. The least I can do is educate myself about their experience.
Dianne:
That is so true. That is so true. Like we talked a little bit earlier about how I have never felt comfortable, you know, and previously, I thought it was all lives matter. And that was my ingrained response. That was my, this is how I was raised. This is what I believe. And this is just my default reaction. And it was a tough thing to take new information and change my mind and feel comfortable doing that. But if you do not educate yourself about what is really going on, and you are not open to that new information and you don’t change your mind or don’t change your opinions about anything, whether it’s this or anything else, you’re stagnant. You know, and that’s what I talked about a little bit earlier in the week. Cause you have to have that willingness to change your mind, to get new information, educate yourself, find out the gaps in your knowledge and fill those gaps. Be willing to be flexible about your thoughts and beliefs as you move forward through life. Otherwise you’re stagnating, you’re stagnating.
Carter:
I think one of the big first steps that you can take on that path, Dianne is just to acknowledge that maybe you don’t know everything. And that that gap in your knowledge is not a personal failing on your part.
Dianne:
No, and it can be remedied. This can be fixed. Totally fixable, go learn it. Go learn.
Carter:
There are so many ways that you can, that you can learn more and you’ve got to do the work yourself. This is, this is not something that’s going to get delivered to you. Like you have to go do some, you’ve got to go do some work. You’ve got to go learn some things. And then you’ve got to kind of sit with what you’ve learned and look at yourself in the mirror and think about how is what you’ve learned reflective of the way you’ve been, the way you’ve behaved. And again, it’s not an indictment of you, right? I mean…
Dianne:
That goes back to the insecurity thing you were talking about earlier. People believe that, you know, if black lives matter, I don’t matter. Because I’m insecure, I believe that. And if I don’t know something, I don’t want to admit it because I’m insecure about the potential gaps in my knowledge. And that you just want to be like, get your head out of your ass and get secure, get secure, quit making this into like the thing that it is today, because you are so insecure that you can’t handle it when somebody else says that somebody besides you is having trouble and needs support. For real. I mean, am I going out on a limb here? Maybe I’m going out on a limb.
Carter:
I don’t think you’re going out that far. Like, you’re not that far out on a limb.
Dianne:
I’m just going all balls to the wall right now today.
Carter:
I think that’s…Just take the governor off.
Dianne:
I’m just going to smash 120 degrees into a brick wall. That’s just what, that’s what you guys are witnessing today.
Carter:
Listen. Sometimes you just got to go see what she’s got. Let’s see what she’s got.
Dianne:
You know, sometimes you do.
Carter:
Yeah. I mean, totally just go get secure, a-hole. I mean, it’s always about you.
Dianne:
It’s not always about you. It is not always about you. That’s also part of what’s going on with the all lives matter idea is that you’re trying to take something that is not about you and make it about you.
Carter:
Exactly.
Dianne:
And you know, this reminds me of a podcast I did a few weeks ago about that. It was actually inspired by work, you know, by, by our leader at work. And it, it is, it’s the one about making someone else shine does not reduce your own shine. And what, what I think frequently stops people from amplifying others’ ideas and holding other people up and making them the rock star is because they are concerned that when they do that, they will somehow reduce or make themselves less or reduce their own shine. These concepts are similar. The ideas that you and I are talking about today are not just about the black lives matter or anything political or anything like that. It’s about common human interactions, right? Supporting somebody that is in need, supporting a group of people that are in need, standing behind a group of people that are not like you to show your support, whether it’s black lives matter or anything else. That is a, that is a human interaction that you have to get comfortable with.
Carter:
If you are in a situation where helping somebody else shine, reduces the spotlight on you. You’re not…You’re not in a good situation.
Dianne:
You’re in that position of scarcity. Like you said, maybe you don’t feel like you’re getting enough of that and that’s, and that somehow by helping someone else get it, you’re reducing what you get. You’re reducing your piece of the pie.
Carter:
I mean, the flip side of that, I think Dianne is if you’re the kind of person that sees somebody else getting spotlight and you want a piece of that instead of them, you need to do some work on yourself.
Dianne:
No, you’re, you’re absolutely. You’re absolutely right. There’s two things we’re talking about right now. There is the, I’m worried that if I make you shine, that I won’t get as much shine because there’s only so much to go around just like a mother’s love.
Dianne:
Right? You have another kid and the other kid thinks, oh…Your first born is thinking, and I know this cause I’m a firstborn. Every kid that comes after me reduces the amount of love my mom gives me. Right. And I think that, and that, and, and, but it’s not true because a mother’s love is boundless. Right? And, and this is the similar thing. Like, just because you, just because someone else gets a little bit of shine, doesn’t mean that’s, that’s a reduction in the amount of shine you can get because there’s a finite amount. There’s not a finite amount. And the other concept that we’re talking about is you’re getting attention, but I want that attention. Like I need that attention. And that’s an entirely different problem. That’s, that’s, that’s a narcissistic type of thing where I can’t handle it when other people get attention that is not directed at me.
Carter:
One of those can be overcome. I say that is, I also say that as a first child, one of those two problems can be overcome. The other one, the other one takes a lot more work. It’s a you problem. And you need to go work on yourself. If you can’t stand the idea of somebody else getting some shine or somebody else’s life being important. That’s a you problem, deal with it. Rub some dirt on it, walk it off.
Dianne:
And you have to, the first thing is you have to recognize, it’s not about you. It’s not always about you. It’s not always about you. It’s the same thing that I told my son when the COVID stuff started happening, you wear a mask because you’re protecting yourself and you’re protecting others. It is not always about you. We’re just letting all of our personal opinions out today, Carter.
Carter:
I mean, there is no filter.
Dianne:
Nope, no filter today. And that’s okay. And that’s okay. So we talked a lot today about a lot of different things. Some of the things in particular is…really, if you, if you’re an all lives matter person, think about why. Is it because you’re worried that if someone says black lives matter, that you don’t matter? Is it because you don’t understand? Is it because there’s some educational gaps that you need to fill? Are you feeling insecure? Are you feeling like this is an uncomfortable topic and you just want to kind of make it all be the same so it’s a little less dangerous for you? You know, think about, think about that.
Dianne:
And in more general terms, be open to changing your thoughts and opinions. When new information comes along…well, number one, go find new information, be open to going and finding new information and filling gaps in your knowledge and finding people that know more about a topic than you do and learning from them. And then using that information to form new opinions, form new beliefs. And that doing that and having those gaps in knowledge, aren’t some sort of testament to your inadequacy as a person, you know, all of that kind of stuff. You’ve got to do the work. No one’s going to do it for you. It’s kind of that stuff. I think that’s, I think that’s a pretty good recap. Is there anything I missed? Probably. Oh and get secure asshole.
Dianne:
All right. So I promise you guys, listeners, thank you so much for sticking around. I appreciate those of you that are still listening. Even after I think it’s been like three weeks since I posted my last one. So I really apologize for the delay. It will not let it happen again every week, going forward, my commitment to you, I will make it happen. I can’t promise what day. I aim for Wednesdays. Can’t promise it’ll always be a Wednesday, but I will commit to doing one a week so that y’all, don’t have to wait to hear my crashing 120 miles an hour into a brick wall. Cause that’s what today felt like, but it was really good. It felt really good to me. So hopefully you guys enjoyed it as well. And I really appreciate you Carter. Thank you for being willing to come on here and just kind of open up and talk about a topic that is a little bit uncomfortable and thank you for holding my hand through it because it was uncomfortable for me as well, but it was I think a topic we needed to talk about.
Dianne:
So thank you.
Carter:
Dianne, this is I’m really passionate about this one. This is the fierce urgency of now. We have to talk about this.
Dianne:
That is so true. That just gave me goosebumps, Carter. The fierce urgency of now we have to talk about it. This is a conversation that needs to be happening across the world. This is not even just an America thing. Although I think it’s, I think it’s probably, maybe it’s worse in America than it is in other places, but this needs to be happening. People need to be happening. People need to be happening. This needs to be happening. People need to be happening. We need to be happening. I need to be having some dinner so I will wrap it up. Thank you again, Carter so much. I appreciate you.
Carter:
Dianne, it’s always a pleasure to talk to you.
Dianne:
Thank you, listeners. Appreciate you too. Hope you guys are staying safe. I really hope you’re wearing your masks. I know not everybody out there is a mask wearer and I know they suck and I know they’re uncomfortable and I know they cut off your breathing and you feel like you’re going to smother and, and all that stuff. But, but they are safer, they are safer. And just do, do your part to keep yourself safe. Keep your family safe to keep other people safe. Even people you don’t know. I think that’s about it for today. Thanks everybody. Have a wonderful week. Bye now!
35 comments